A short film on a budget, Super 8 or 16?

[supa_ate_sixteen]

Hey everybody,

I am about to embark on a short film project roughly ten minutes in length and was wondering about film formats. I have never shot Super 8 negative or 16mm negative for that matter. I have a total budget of $1,000 and am trying to think about which way of achieving my film while maintaining this budget. I know I want to shoot on negative film since the reversal looks is not what I am going for. Now for Super 8, I can get 200T from Kodak but what about scenes that require daylight and other lighting situations? This means I might have to go Pro 8mm for Super 8 film stock, not unless its possible to do the whole film in 200T. Now with 16, I obviously have the choice of the same stocks as Pro 8mm since they are the same as the Kodak 16mm stocks. For film to video transfer, I am either going to have to go with Rank or maybe Roger's service depending on the look of an order he's doing for me right now. So here are my questions.

Should I go with Kodak 200T and try the whole film on that stock? I do want to do daylight stuff and so I don't know about filtration and how it looks on this stock.

Or should I go with Pro 8mm? Which I believe comes out to being similar in cost to Kodak's 16mm film. Even though I haven't heard the best things about Pro 8mm's service, I would still use their negative as apposed to shooting on reversal.

Or should I go with 16mm negative from Kodak? The big thing is I have to do some test shoots of these stocks in order to see what I am going to get. Thier 50D stock and 320T look like what I might want to use for indoor and outdoor shooting.

While film stock and processing play a high role in my budget, obviously as others will know that Rank transferring is costly and a pain in the ass for low budget filmmakers. If Roger's transfer service would open up to 16mm then I would definetely take that into account, but film format is mostly the issue right now. Currently, my most recent project is in the "jittery cart wasteland" and apparantly ninety or so percent of my 30 rolls of K40 that Roger is transferring are part of the Kodak defective batch, bummer. So I am really nervous about starting my next project on Super 8 because of this little dilemma we are all facing. Is it just the K40 that is bad? How about the negative stocks? What about Pro8mm's karts? For a budget at a grand, what do people recommend?


Thanks in advance!!

------------------

[mattias]

it's very simple: you won't be able to do it right for $1000 on 16 mm, so it's super-8 or nothing. even with a moderate shooting ratio, you'd have to spend almost $1000 just to get a video copy for editing if you're shooting 16 mm negative.

so, you've decided to use super-8. tungsten stock can be used in daylight with a filter, so using the vision stock will not be a problem. the built in filter of any super-8 camera will be close enough, even though i guess an 85b filter is what you should really use. since deveoping and transfer costs the same while the stock is at least $15 cheaper per cartridge (or 100' spool), this will bring your film and transfer costs down to around $700 or so. sounds like a plan, right?

this said, i would get the extra cash and do it on 16 mm. $1000 is way to much to risk on those jittery carts and toy cameras. i guess matt and scot will disagree with me here, but it's my opinion, ok? :-)

/matt

[crimsonson]

Really the first step, assuming your script is final, is story boarding it. Then from the script a detail budget (a la Excel).

Its hard to recommend anything when we do not know the story and what kind of logistic and labor involved.

For example:
A night short is labor intensive and needs a fast stock or more light.
A short shot on your porch at around 1:00 PM is as easy pie. Theoretically you only need a bunch of K40 with this one.
With the night short peice - you will need lights, extension cord, some gaffing experience, maybe a permit etc, etc.

Storyboard first and do your budget. List those things you know is written in stone- A sound guy, rental of soudn gear, etc...

I suggest keep it simple first, less setting changes, keep your shooting day long (10-12 hours), etc.

16 will give overall better quality (but quality depends those behind and front of the camera). Theoretically, an experienced filmmaker can make somthing better with S8 than a newbie with 16. Its is more expensive. However, there are far more stocks available. Thus shooting in lowlight is not as big of a hassle. You can shoot with 400' mags. Less mag change means faster and more fluid workflow.

The only real advantage of S8 is really cheaper and more portable. However, support gear is harder to come by. Lens is very limited. You pretty much will need to use gear made for DV cams (tripods, mounts, etc). Noise is alsways a factor with the exceptio of Nizo Sound series cams.


I also pretty much agree with Mattias says.

------------------


[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited March 19, 2002).]

[Kurt]

Toy cameras?

Nizo 801 Macro
Beaulieu 4008ZMII
Elmo 1012 S-XL

Huh?

------------------

[mattias]

> Toy cameras?
> Nizo 801 Macro

check.

> Beaulieu 4008ZMII

check.

> Elmo 1012 S-XL

check.

have you ever shot with an sr2 or an aaton, or even a cp-16, sr1, acl, arri s or bolex rx? all s8 cameras are toys compared to most 16 mm cameras.

/matt

[supa_ate_sixteen]

I'm actually in the storyboarding phase as we speak. So everyone recommends I go with 16mm? I do think that good things can come from Super8 negative. What kind of price difference are we looking at comparing Pro8mm negative to Kodak 200T, to 16mm from Kodak? What about processing comparisons for the three options? I thought if anything people would of said that $1000 for ten minutes is a pretty decent budget. I am not going for fancy effects or the such. Most of my shooting will be daylight and interior stuff might be in a studio. My costs will only include film stock, processing, video transfer, and my props. Actors, crew, location, and equipment will all come pretty much free. Should I still go with 16?

------------------

[el don]

Will you have the ability to have a 16mm camera for free? If yes, and if you have a good dp, then just do what mattias told you. But i think you should just do your budget, make a first version of your short on video or dv, and try to find a producer that could help you. Did you already worked with both formats?

------------------

[S 8 Booster]

Super 8 will do the trick for your movie without doubt.

If you are anxious about running into problems its 4 times cheaper to do them in S8.

I spoke to PRO8mm yesterday and they told me that the genuine PRO8 neg cartridges are different from Kodak?s and are jitter free . This is PRO8 neg stock with PRO8 labels.

They also adviced to use pure daylight film for daylight shots and pure tungsten stock for artificial light purposes. This means that you will not need filters for light balance correction in either case and gain noticable sharpness & light which in turn results in bettter images.

My experience with the K40 is that S8 XL cams with 220? shutter angles produce more grain and less sharpness than the "industry standard " (35/16mm PROs) typical 150-170? shutter angles. Quite a few S8 cams allows these shutter angles too.

I have not had the opportunity to compare the effect of different shutter angeles on neg film yet but I think Kodak use a typical 170? for their technical data reference charts on their "motion" neg films.

However a S8 cam with adjustable shutter angles may improve image quality considerably over general XL cams.

For true low light situations the XL option is useful anyway.

I got a PRO8mm demo video casette a while ago. It was really good.

Personally I would preffer S8 over 16mm for Video projects.

I do not have any experience with 16mm but I have seen it projected based on K40 or K25 and I wasn?t that impressed. It was a Beaulieu16 over a Bauer16.

Kodak has a web page with lots of useful info on their neg stocks available through PRO8mm here: http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/m...ucts/negative/
Its got exposure samples with dedicated spots on latitude / f-stop s and a lot more.

Really good. Take a look at it.




------------------
Vidar

[gaspode]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mattias:
all s8 cameras are toys compared to most 16 mm cameras.

/matt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, many of these 'profesional' 'toy' cameras (How does that work?) have mane more features than you will ever find on a 16mm camera

------------------
'Cause of death... at this time, unknown...'
'Unknown? What the..? He's had his fuckin' head sliced off!'

[Scott Spears]

Anything is possible depending on the deals you can pull.

For 5 to 1 ratio shooting 16mm brand new film plan on spending the following:
Film stock $560
processing $320
transfer($175 per hr.) $700
There's no shipping costs or tape stock or lots of things.

Super-8 reversal:
Film Stock $200
processing(Walmart $5) $100
Transfer(Roger $15) $400

Super-8 Negative:
Film/processing $700
Tranfer $700
(Transfer Station $175)

Short Ends 16mm:
Film .17 $340
Processing $320
Transfer(3 hours) $520

There are many ways to go at producing. My advice is always plan in things cost twice what you think. Also, don't go for the cheapest thing because it may well cost you more than you think.

Scott

------------------